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| Complaints; What do you think? | |
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| Topic Started: May 31 2007, 03:00 PM (755 Views) | |
| Brookworm | May 31 2007, 03:00 PM Post #1 |
Wretch
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My friends have issues with AWE. I've talked to numerous people, and a varied group at that (my groups of friends tend to be varied, indeed). Each has opinions about the movie. The Will fangurls are upset, the so called "movie buffs" are critical, and the "normal" people are just meh. Here's a few complaints that they have, and many of them I would agree with. 1. The giant Calypso was just corny. Overdone and lousy effects. 2. Mulitple Jacks and Tiny Jacks were unnecessary. 3. Jack fighting Davy Jones on the mast was too much of a suspension of disbelief. 4. The entire pirate clan should have fought at the end instead of just two vessels. 5. Davy Jones was a "weakling" as opposed to the fiercesome pirate from DMC. 6. The plot was too complicated and chaotic. 7. Elizabeth's speech should have been said by a man. 8. Will and Liz's marriage in the middle of battle was "stupid." Some of these I agree with...some I don't. I wanted my Rumrunner and Parleyer friends' opinions.:) Of course my non Internet, non Pirate fan friends won't have the same arguments as y'all will have, but I need some backup. |
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| Atrice | May 31 2007, 03:21 PM Post #2 |
Swabbie
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1. The giant Calypso was just corny. Overdone and lousy effects. - I agree... she was very out of place. Although she wasn't as bad the second time one watched the movie, as she was the first time...  2. Mulitple Jacks and Tiny Jacks were unnecessary. - multiple Jacks - VERY NECESSERY! Some were SHIRTLESS! Plus they were there to show that Jack's finally really gone mad with the heat and being alone for so long. The Tiny Jacks weren't that necessery, but like the Giant Dalma, you get used to them... 3. Jack fighting Davy Jones on the mast was too much of a suspension of disbelief. - I loved that scene, I just wish we had gotten more of it. What they showed in the movie was pretty much what was in the trailer too. But I loved it. 4. The entire pirate clan should have fought at the end instead of just two vessels. - I both agree and disagree. Because the final battle was really well done with the effects and all, but having them all fight would have been cool too. 5. Davy Jones was a "weakling" as opposed to the fiercesome pirate from DMC. - Beckett has his heart... and threatens to kill Davy constantly. He even made Davy kill his pet... but Davy was still cool, though, and not weak. Just sad and annoyed that he was being threatened like that, and then the Calypso stuff also did something to him... 6. The plot was too complicated and chaotic. - nah... not if you actually followed it. Plus I talked to a friend today, who has seen it twice now (I'm impressed, I didn't expect that). And she is not a PotC fan like me at all (she mostly likes it because it's a historical-movie-with-Johnny-Depp in it). But she said it was much better the second time, also because of things that confused her first time got cleared up now. Watching a movie twice, nearly all movies, is always best... 7. Elizabeth's speech should have been said by a man. - but then it would have been even more Braveheart like than it was. It would have been great to have it said by Jack, but I think Elizabeth did it fine too. All she knows about Pirates and Freedom, is what she knows from Jack. And she is the King... 8. Will and Liz's marriage in the middle of battle was "stupid." - no no no, it was so great... I've told my boyfriend it was a cool wedding and I want to marry like that one day (unlikely to happen though). But it's got to be the most cool movie-wedding ever, I loved that scene and especially Barbossa in it. It was well done and fun about it being complicated and stuff... I read someone on another board complain about it, that it was too bad and complicated and she left the cinema several times because it annoyed her. So she didn't even feel like retelling it - well she couldn't, could she, if she walked out and missed important points? :rolleyes: |
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| Explosive Calm | May 31 2007, 04:36 PM Post #3 |
Scallywag
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You make some really good points, although I wasn't bothered by giant Calypso, or the Jacks, and the fight on the mast was pretty crazy, but it's not the first time they've had fights while balancing on things, it's just a higher up version of the fight on the beams in the first one, and probably more believable than the water wheel one just because that one was moving making balancing harder. Now the final battle, where I was wondering why the whole pirate clan weren't fighting, I could see that if they had have taken part then the final battle would have lasted several times longer, and when the Pearl and the Dutchman teamed up was quite great to watch, I'd like to think the pirates were out blowing up the navy and keeping them away from the big battle we were watching. As for the complicated stuff, it seems that most good films raise questions to think about, I wasn't so much confused, there were a few things I had to think about, and I'm sure it'll get better and clearer when I watch it again, which will hopefully be really soon as I thought the whole film rocked, the only real complaint I had was how they killed some of the best characters with so little screen time for them, everything else I was either fine with or could live with. |
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| Monkey | May 31 2007, 07:02 PM Post #4 |
Smuggler
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I'm not going to comment on every one of those points, partially because I've commented on some of them on other threads. The fight on the mast, I have to admit, takes a huge suspension of disbelief. When Jack first jumps up there, he's holding on to the lines for support, which is to be expected. Suddenly, once Davy is there, the two of them are able to have a fierce sword fight, while balancing on, essentially, a log while the ships are rocking around in a storm and the winds are hurling by. Yeah, you've gotta use your imagination a bit. But in that scene's defence, the whole trilogy requires a suspension of disbelief. That's part of the fun, and I don't mind suspending my disbelief for a while in the name of fun. This next comment, I've held my tongue on (or keyboard, as the case may be) at risk of being keelhauled for saying it. But I really didn't like the wedding. Barbossa telling them "I'm a little busy right now" was funny, but the scene as a whole was, as Brookworm's friends put it, stupid. *ducks to avoid flying tomatoes and rum bottles* *sneakes out the backdoor in a hurry* |
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| wolfarcher | May 31 2007, 08:00 PM Post #5 |
Miscreant
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1. The giant Calypso was just corny. Overdone and lousy effects. The effects were fine, its just stupid. It doesn't bother you as much after the intial first shock of seeing it though. 2. Mulitple Jacks and Tiny Jacks were unnecessary. I love the mulitple Jacks. They were funny, and were contained within the domains of Davy Jones, so I liked them a lot. Though if you're weird and don't like Johnny Depp that much, I can see where you'd lose interest. 3. Jack fighting Davy Jones on the mast was too much of a suspension of disbelief. NO. That was a great scene, it was just freakin' awesome. 4. The entire pirate clan should have fought at the end instead of just two vessels. Understandable, though my friend brought up a good point: they aren't anywhere near as fast as the Pearl or Dutchman, and probably would've been sucked into the maelstrom and had a gaint ship crash, killing the Pearl, the Dutchman and everything else. Plus, it was good to see it that way, ultimate good guy boat versus ulitmate bad-guy boat. Also, the pirate knew they would've been destroyed by the EITCo anyway, why not wait to see if the Pearl could take down the flagship? 5. Davy Jones was a "weakling" as opposed to the fiercesome pirate from DMC. As stated before, Beckett had his heart and could've killed him whenever he wanted. He was more tortured in this one with the Calypso-ness, and not for nothing, he was just as fierce and crazy during the maelstrom as in DMC. Probably even more so. 6. The plot was too complicated and chaotic. Sorry that you have to pay attention to understand the movie, and if you don't want to, then see something else. Honestly, the plot isn't that complicated. Its more so that Curse of the Black Pearl, but its still easy-to-follow as long as you pay attention. 7. Elizabeth's speech should have been said by a man. The only part that bothered me is when her voice got really high and scratchy, like when she screamed "Freedom!" it was just "  Don't wanna mess with her, damn.8. Will and Liz's marriage in the middle of battle was "stupid." Again, NO. That was a masterfully orchestrated and hilarious and awesome battle/romantic scene. I don't even know of anything else like that. Maybe Han and Leia a little bit on Endor; oh, duh, AotC on Geonosis, but that still doesn't even come close to this in AWE. |
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| Barbossa's 1 Luv | May 31 2007, 10:58 PM Post #6 |
Wretch
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Oh man no, the wedding was the best part in the movie. It was funny and awesome at the same time. The multiple Jacks didn't bother me, I do think that Tia Dalma huge was a bit corny like you said. And I definitely do not think the plot was too complicated. I was drinking when I first saw it and believe me I can't pay attention to anything when I am partying, and I got it just fine. |
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| mttomb | May 31 2007, 11:26 PM Post #7 |
Scallywag
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I agree. It did not look good to me, and it was unnecessary. I thought they could have come up with a better way of showing that she was no longer bound to her mortal form.
I liked the multiple Jacks, but I would agree about the tiny Jacks. Again, I did not think they looked good. Seriously, it's just hard to make a normal sized human look right if they're too big or too small. And, really, that scene's purpose could have been fulfilled in a different way.
Thank you! I've been quiet about it, but seriously, Jack's half falling over just standing on solid ground. How is he swordfighting on a pole during a rainstorm holding a chest while the ship is tilting and bucking due to the maelstrom? That was just stupid. I'm sorry. It was.
No, I think it's better with only two. Fights are better when they're individual, so you care about the people involved. This way it allowed it to give individual time to the characters, instead of just being about huge numbers of ships against each other.
I agree. In DMC he was the main villain, fearsome and awesome. In this one he was Beckett's puppy dog. He wasn't scary at all.
Though I was able to keep up with it, I would actually agree with this. I mean, I think it was brave of the filmakers to make a huge summer blockbuster where everyone's backstabbing everyone else and everyone's motives are suspect, but at the same time I really, really miss the simplicity of CotBP. People always act like things need to get bigger to be better, but I would not agree with that. For people who aren't obsessive fans, I think they would just find it all annoying.
I think I'm the only person on the face on the planet who actually liked that speech, lol. I really don't have any problems with it. I mean, I usually like the big motivational speech, like the president's speech in Independence Day. I love that speech, yet I've seen things saying it's the worst speech in all of movie history. To each his own. I don't think it should have been said by a man, either. I mean, really, does it matter who says it? It's that it gets said. And it's more fitting with Elizabeth's personality to say it than any of the other main characters. I know, I know, Elizabeth's way too Mary Sue in the movie, but, well... we already knew that. Might as well have her go all the way, lol.
I think I'm the only person who does not have any strong feelings about the marriage one way or the other. I am glad that they got married. I feel badly for Elizabeth and Will that their marriage was during the middle of a storm and a battle, that Elizabeth didn't get to wear a nice dress, that there were no guests, and that they had to settle on being married by a crummy pirate. I mean, they're fine with those things, but I still feel sorry for them. At the same time, Barbossa's part in it was funny, so... meh. Whatever. |
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| topcatdk | Jun 1 2007, 07:42 AM Post #8 |
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Swabbie
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I think the multiple jacks were quite a fun idea, but the small Jacks were overdone a bit. Giant Calypso didn’t really do much for me, but they had to somehow write her out of the movie, still the sequence is quite short so ok. The fight on the mast wasn’t working very well, which is probably also why they only showed a very short moment of it, any longer and you would just go: Nah. About the fight it can be recommended to see the extended documentaries on “The Two Towers” where Peter Jackson and his editor talks about making a huge battle work on film. In order to make a battle interesting you have to stick to your main heroes, still they could have had a few short cuts of the other pirate ships fending off the rest of the armada, maybe budgetary reasons. Davy Jones almost had to be downed, you have to look at where his real powers came in DMC, he had a fast and invincible ship and still does, but he’s forced into taking commands from Beckett. Then he had the Kraken to do the dirty work, and as Beckett had him kill the beast his main strength has been removed, so I though the portrait of him made sense. The plot is somewhat complicated, but I thought DMC was much worse in that regard. Only thing that bother me is they missed out on following up on certain parts as discussed in other threads, and I also dislike they simply remove the Kraken with a single line said by Beckett. I though it would have been great if they’d opened the movie with Beckett approaching Jones, showing him who has the heart and then ordering Jones to do as he is told and get rid of the Kraken. I loved Elizabeth’s speech, and I loved how her character developed through DMC and the new movie. There are far too few strong women in action moves, the only ones that worked I can recall are Tomb Raider and Charlie’s Angels, one they were sort of like on their own. Finally a woman who leads into a big battle, and btw: Who should have given that speech instead? Jack Sparrow? Him taking about fighting and dying together for a common cause? No way, and besides he was locked up in the brig on the Dutchman at the time. Barbossa? No he doesn’t want to fight at this point in time. Will Turner? He does not have any authority, never been a captain. Who’s left then; Gibbs? Not a leader either, nor is the comedy team. Oh, now I get the Mr. Cotton’s Parrot should have done the battle speech… The wedding didn’t do much for me either, but I still found it to be somewhat comical. I’m not to sure if I like the mix of battle, romance and comedy in one scene though. Anyways it did the job of setting up for Will’s “death”. |
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| adamantpanda | Jun 1 2007, 05:03 PM Post #9 |
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Wretch
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5. Davy Jones was a "weakling" as opposed to the fiercesome pirate from DMC. No one's mentioned this yet, but in addition to Beckett making him kill his beast his heart was now very close to him constantly, more than it had ever been in the past however long it's been since he cut it out. In the scene where he's listening to the locket's music he feels a tear and picks it up surprised, then realizes that his heart is right behind him. The presence of his heart makes him more of a man and less of a monster. (At least that's how I interpreted that scene) |
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| piraterocker24 | Jun 7 2007, 02:37 PM Post #10 |
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Unregistered
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COMPLETLY AGREE! all the way 
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| Choccie | Jun 7 2007, 06:18 PM Post #11 |
Smuggler
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Same for me, Panda. That's how I see it, though I hadn't heard anyone voice the same thoughts until now... |
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| Alia Atreides | Jun 7 2007, 10:46 PM Post #12 |
Journeyman Craftswoman
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It was corny, that I will agree with many here on--definitely overdone, but like Wolf said the effects were fine, it was just that it was stupid. If that is the best people can come up with for an idea of how to visually change a person into a god or goddess...then I think that's a serious lack of creativity. They could have still been uncreative and taken their cues from Hercules/Xena and done similar effects to when characters in those series eat ambrosia and become gods, and I would have been far, far more accepting of it. Really, I think this is a fault of the two latter movies--you trade in good storytelling skills and heart (not literally, Davy Jones' heart does not count) for special effects. There's no need to pull more of a George Lucas than in necessary.
Agreed. Multiple Jacks could have been done so that it worked--but I think the problem here was that instead of going for a good and grand entrance in the style of CotBP or DMC, they went for the multiple Jacks. The tiny Jacks...Jack's craziness in his head is something that should stay there. It's much more powerful when you get to try and figure out--like in the first film if he really is crazy, or lucky, or just feigns being crazy. Leave us some mystery please, and not the bit about the mark of Beckett.
Actually I found the whole movie to be that, not just that one scene--but this scene was one of the worst for that. I could buy into the crabs moving the Black Pearl since that's Davy Jones' locker--it doesn't operate under the same rules as our universe. I could even buy Will Turner's flip in the first movie, and walking undead skeletons as well (more because the whole vibe of the first movie was in not taking itself too seriously), but this fell in the category of the Jackabob from DMC, and the Giant Wheel fight. Actually I'd say it is more akin to the Wheel fight--a bit of fighting in the rigging could have been cool, had it not been extended for far too long. And especially giving off the Matrix vibes as it did.
I disagree--the battle was just long enough as it was, that having the other ships involved in it would have just made everything worse. It's funny that topcatdk mentioned it, because I was thinking the exact same thing--about the same commentaries as well--you have to keep track of what is important and who is in the battle.
He was a weakling compared to his powers in the previous movie, yes, but that was what the plot called for. I think the writers sort of boxed themselves into a corner by making Davy Jones and the Flying Dutchman too powerful to begin with--as well as the Kraken, and this was really their way of trying to even it out. It came across as rather cheap, and not too well thought out, but I had less qualms about it than with other plot holes.
Any movie that you must see more than once to understand the plot and what is going on is not a well written or executed movie. If the audience--the majority of it, has an issue understanding it, then there is a problem. It is fine to see movies more than once to pick up on missed things--or...maybe like seeing a movie like the Sixth Sense again--but that is a wholly different case. People understood the plot of it after seeing it once--you watch a movie like that the second time to confirm that everything holds together. The first movie did fine in that regard--you understood what happened the first time when you saw it. If you went back and saw it subsequent times you caught onto more things, little pieces of more complicated subplots and other such things--and this made the movie fun to analyze.
Wolf--I don't think the issue was that people were not paying attention. DMC was, for the most part, accessible to those who had only seen the first movie once, but AWE failed to be so for many people who had seen both of the previous movies only once apiece. Trust me, the person who I saw it with was paying attention, and she's as bright as they come, but she still felt that it was too complicated and too chaotic herself. Writer is going to be her profession and she had some harsh things to say about the plot of this movie. Although much to my chagrin I believe she applauded the Jacks without shirts. The other thing to keep in mind as to why some had an easier time understanding this plot than others is also the type of company we keep. Most of us on here--no matter how many times we saw each film, actively participate in discussing the films, or speculating, reading spoilers, discussing our ideas about it. The more familiar you become with the material and various character tendencies and traits, as well as the previous movies and how the writers and director craft the story, the easier it is for us to follow what is going on. Most here speculated on the whole Tia/Calypso thing, and knew that that was what it was going into the film, for people who genuinely had no idea, trying to keep track of that, as well as the continually changing betrayal plots--who betrayed whom, for whom, becomes exceedingly complex.
I really don't care who says it, as long as it wasn't her. While it was nice to tie into the first movie again, with Elizabeth stealing ideas and stuff from Barbossa, and then spreading it to other pirates, the fact that she had the gall to suggest that people should have the freedom to cause agony to others, and to break any law simply because they felt that they were entitled to was...severely disappointing. I prefer it when they try not to sound too high minded about having a lack of morals. And hygiene.
Within the context of the first film--yes. More issues with the "Willing suspension of disbelief." However...there is a certain poignancy to it within the context of the larger picture of Will and Elizabeth's relationship. It was always pirates which brought them together--and more than that it was Barbossa who did--he is the reason that Will and Elizabeth were a couple, and then married--and it was more than simply preforming the marriage ceremony himself. Will first met Elizabeth onboard the Dauntless after he had been rescued from the merchant vessel he was on--or the wreckage of it. It was the Black Pearl under the command of Barbossa who attacked it, and who through that action that the two met each other, and could eventually fall in love. Then later it was the attack of the Black Pearlon Port Royal that set up events so that Will could rescue Elizabeth, prove his worthiness to her. There is no definitive answer as to whether or not she would have gone with Will if it had not been for the events regarding the medallion, and the Black Pearl, so you could say here that Barbossa brought them together here. Then of course there is his presiding over the ceremony himself. Three times he's done things that brought those two together. It's not a terribly important fact or anything, but I think it's an interesting one, and for that reason I can't entirely say that the wedding was stupid, but it did suffer from LotR's Aragorn's syndrome (where in the books, Aragorn can go on speaking for a whole page prasing some one's skill with a sword in a bad area or the middle of a battle and *not* get killed), and for that reason I wasn't terribly happy with it. Not that, being the pessimist I am about these films, that there was much I found redeeming in AWE. |
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| mttomb | Jun 8 2007, 03:05 AM Post #13 |
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Scallywag
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I just kind of wanted to make a point about what I said about this one:
I still agree with that. What I want to say is that, I understand why he's that way. I agree with everything everyone's said. Beckett's got him under control, the heart is near him as it hasn't been in years, etc. I understand and agree with that. It makes sense, and in a way they had to do it as it's the logical progression after previous events. That doesn't change the fact that he is a weakling, he isn't scary, and he's just not as impressive as in DMC. I really don't care how much sense it makes. I don't have to like it.
Seriously. I have no idea how well I would have followed it or not, because I had read so much before-hand that I was pretty well on top of things before seeing the movie. But, most people don't go to see movies multiple times (especially if they're not die hard fans of the series), and many of those people would have seen the previous two movies once, twice... maybe even zero times. It's for those people who aren't obsessed, don't read spoilers, and have seen the other movies a minimal number of times that it's going to be confusing to, which is sad because they're a large portion of the audience, and you really don't want to tick off any segment of the people that are going to determine the gross of your movie. Whether they get it on the first time or not is really important, because they're not going to see it multiple times. Besides which, people at work know I'm obsessed with pirates, and they keep asking me stuff about the third movie that they didn't get. It's getting rather annoying, really. |
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| adamantpanda | Jun 8 2007, 08:00 AM Post #14 |
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Wretch
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There were many parts of the first movie, as straight-forward as it was, that were still very confusing to the average movie-goer. The whole Aztec cold curse confused people. Not knowing anything about the movie, other than Singapore was involved, Jack Sparrow would be alive again, and the possibility that Tia Dalma was Calypso, I still was able to understand the story-line. I think there comes a point in every movie, and even in books to some extent, that you just have to focus yourself on the main story and not get swept up in the side stuff. If you want to understand every bit of it you're going to have to accept that you can't get it all in one sitting. I think I'm done for now (and if I've come off rather too aggressively, my apologies - I wasn't able to deal properly with a completely different problem earlier in the day and I'm frustrated by it). |
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| mttomb | Jun 8 2007, 10:23 AM Post #15 |
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Scallywag
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You didn't come off as too aggressive Panda.  But like you say, it's not important to get every detail in the first sitting, but the main story. Exactly how the Aztec gold curse worked really isn't important to understanding and enjoying the movie. All you really need to take from it is that Barbossa and crew are cursed and they need Will's blood to undo that. Whether you know why or not is rather of a side detail, ultimaltely (I mean, not for those obsessed like us, but for just a normal movie goer). So whether they're confused about that or not... meh, not really important. For AWE, though, people are confused about people's motives, who's on who's side, why people are doing what they're doing... important stuff. That's why it's unfortunate, because this stuff is really important.
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